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Mandolin.org.uk
Trevor Moyle
Interview

Trevor Moyle is the owner of the Acoustic Music Company and Mandolin Man. He has a passion for the instruments and nearly thirty years business experience.

First, a few questions about yourself as a player….

How did you get started in music? Was the mandolin the first instrument you played? Why did you begin to play the mandolin?

I played recorder at junior school then Scottish bagpipes in a local band. Then at secondary school I tried to play guitar. I think the mandolin appealed because it was a bit different, everybody was playing guitar. Also I had plans to back-pack around the world and thought I might carry a mandolin.

How well do you play the mandolin and what sorts of music do you like to play yourself? Do you perform publicly?

I don’t play very well. I find that I will get into it for a few years and work hard then lose inspiration for a while. My most recent keenness was playing various ten string/citterns while singing my own songs at open mike nights. I was quite pleased with my song writing and my playing was adequate for what I was trying to do but after I proved to about five singing teachers that they couldn’t teach absolutely anybody to sing I gave up.

I remember hearing once that Leo Kottke had said that his voice was like ‘ducks farting on a grey morning’; if mine was that good I might have continued. Currently I’ve been playing my songs again and tootle about in odd moments and once a month or so get together with some friends on guitar, fiddle and flute to run through some tunes.

What other instruments do you play?

Guitar very badly, not sure if I could remember or blow up the bagpipes…

Now, to the shop….

What made you decide to open a shop specializing in high quality mandolins and guitars? After all, many music shops in the UK seem to be looking for a quick turnover with cheap instruments.

After my mid-life crisis (not recommended) my business partner had bought me out of my previous business (importing and wholesaling Mexican furniture). I wasn’t sure what I was going to do next, I knew I was going to study and did an M Phil in Development Studies (I’m now doing a part-time PhD). One day I was walking up St James’s Street in Brighton and saw a small music shop for sale.

The proverbial light lit up in my head. I had visited the US many times since 1972 and had had Bill Bussman (of Old Wave Mandolins) make me a ten string so I was very aware of what was available mandolin-wise in the US but not on sale here. The owner of that business wouldn’t accept my offer for stock that I didn’t really want so I looked around and took the lease on No 39.

I wanted to do something that I believed in and loved doing. The idea went through various phases, initially to sell all kinds of folk instruments, specializing in the quality end of the market. By the time I opened the shop it was down to mandolins, guitars and dulcimers (soon dropped). I had planned to do banjos initially but I asked John (my manager and guitar expert) one day while we were shop fitting how much he knew about them.

He said nothing! I replied that that was more than me. As the idea was to provide expertise as well as quality instruments the idea was dropped right then. I knew there was a gap in the market for bluegrass mandolins and the initial plan for guitars was to stock well known quality brands that were not available locally. I ordered one such, paid £6000 in advance, and then when the shop-fitting was near completion I phoned to arrange delivery.

They claimed they had never heard of me - it took a while to get my money back - and in the meantime one day I was reading Acoustic Guitar Magazine. I noticed that there were many American small-(work) shop makers that were not represented in the UK. As I was planning to stock mandolins from small makers and individual luthiers this seemed like a perfect fit. I’ve always had an aversion to ‘big business’ and ‘men in suits’, so this seemed like a way to do something that I loved and fitted with my personal philosophy.

I thought that it would be great to deal directly with the luthiers that build the instruments and have their names on the headstock, rather than reps who in most cases know nothing about the instruments and have even less interest in them.

Recently, I went into a music shop in my local area. It had a couple of mandolins on the wall, both in the £100 - £200 range, like most of the guitars on display. The instruments were festooned with alarm wires and big notices warning customers not to touch the instruments. By contrast, when I visited Mandolin Brothers in New York recently, Stan Jay, the owner, welcomed me into the shop and told me that is was my duty to try every instrument in the shop. The mandolin prices ranged from $500 to over $25000!

How do you feel customers should be regarded when they visit you?

I’m with Stan on that one. I don’t keep regular hours in the shop but John and Ed (our part-timer) are under very strict instructions to call me whenever someone is looking at mandolins: I’m usually only a few minutes away. Also people have often been in touch before they visit so I make sure I am available. No instruments are tied down or alarmed. I try to establish a customer’s needs and invite them to sit in the playing room. I then bring them a succession of mandolins (tuning them up first) and regale them with all my ideas and prejudices (oval vs f hole, the mando police etc).

I tell them not just about the instruments and woods but also about the makers. I know most of them and it is important to me (though not to everyone) that the maker is someone I like and respect. I see myself as the contact between the maker and player. Customers can’t visit the makers but I can tell them about them. Most luthiers don’t have the time to spend with a customer who might be there a day and then buy elsewhere - that’s my job – and they don’t carry any stock. I have ten to twenty mandolins in stock for my more popular makes.

If customers do visit luthiers they can’t then play mandolins or guitars from different luthiers back to back (if they have any for them to play). Once I have an idea of what might suit them I leave them in the playing room with a selection and try to shut up and leave them to play. I try to give them as much information as possible to help them make a decision and point out that my views are just that, though having said that I will not stock any mandolin that I think is not a quality instrument for its price and a good mandolin (eg, modern Gibsons, Tacomas and Ovation to name a few). I would normally expect a customer to spend anything from one to five hours choosing but it can take days. Some know what they want, try it, buy it, and leave.

People often comment that it’s hard work! That’s a shame but many people have never seen more than two or three mandolins at a time and often none of the type and quality I am showing them. So it’s not surprising if I show them twenty hand-made F5s or F4s and they get a little overwhelmed. A coffee/lunch break often helps, but many have traveled a long way, sometimes from other countries, and are staying in Brighton overnight so they will often narrow it down on the first day and come back the next. I would hate to have to choose just one myself.

What sort of people are your customers? Given that you sell high quality – and therefore expensive – instruments, I wouldn’t have thought you get a lot of casual buyers dropping in and coming out with a top grade mandolin or guitar.

Very little of our trade is local. Most of what we sell is only available through us in Europe - though I believe we have the largest stock of mandolins in the World - so people come from all over the UK and sometimes other European countries.

It’s hard to define a typical customer but most are keen amateur players, generally over thirty. Some are excellent players, others novices wanting to start with a quality instrument. I can remember when I thought it was a shame if a top end instrument was owned by a beginner but then a couple of things happened. First, I was in Denver many years ago and was invited by Harry Tuft at the Denver Folk Lore Centre to his monthly play-in.

There was a guy there playing the most beautiful guitar I had ever seen or heard. He played very badly; “What a shame,” I thought. But as I thought about it it occurred to me that it was better he spent his cash on a fine guitar than an SUV or assault rifle (lots of those in Colorado). Second, having a good instrument does make you play better!!! But only because if you have something that you just can’t put down it makes you play more. Unfortunately (I know I’ve tried) this is the only way to improve.

The mandolin is a far more prominent instrument in American bluegrass, country music and other ‘folk’ music forms than it is here. There are, therefore, many more individual American luthiers and small ‘boutique’ factories than in the UK. How do you think British luthiery stands up in comparison to that across the pond?

And how does the relevant importance of the mandolin in the two music cultures affect the price of instruments?

The answer to this is different for guitars and mandolins, so I’ll cover the guitars first, though some of this applies to both. There are many good guitar luthiers in the UK, but they often lack an understanding of what they have to do if they are going to get known. They think the business side of things is somehow unclean or unethical. Unfortunately life is such that you could be the best luthier in the world but if you don’t tell people about your skills then no one is going to know.

Many think the mark-up shops like mine take is a rip-off without thinking about how much we spend on rent, wages, advertising etc. If you don’t sell through a shop then it’s advertising, which is very expensive, or festivals: expensive and time consuming. Having said that though I am not looking to represent anybody else at the moment.

Comparing mandolin making in the UK with the US is comparing two different things. As you say the music traditions vary as does the presence of the mandolin but the most significant aspect is the type of mandolin. The carved top and back ‘bluegrass’ mandolin is a very different beast to the folk mandolin. It is also much more difficult to make and therefore costs more. I will be shot down for saying this but a skilled carpenter can make a passable folk mandolin and there are many around made by not so skilled carpenters, and a few very good ones.

There are one or two good bluegrass mandolin makers (and some very good folk-style mandolin family makers) in the UK but only one I know of that is highly thought of in the US. Until I opened my shop there was nowhere in Europe that had substantial stock of hand-made bluegrass mandolins. I had to ask myself if this was because there was no demand or because there is no supply. I now have the answer: there is certainly not enough demand to justify the level of stock I am currently carrying. I am trying to reduce it (in order to remain open) though I hope by not too much. The sad fact is that I don’t even earn my living yet after four years! But I have been having a great time.

You stock mandolins by Czech makers and they are certainly quality instruments. Why are mandolins – especially traditional American models such as F5 models – being built to such a high standard in the Czech Republic?

It comes down to two things. There is a tradition of following all styles of American folk music in the Czech Republic; Bill Monroe visited several times. And there is a tradition of violin making: the skills are the similar to those needed for making bluegrass mandolins.

Given the instruments to which you have access, I’d like to know what instruments you own yourself and why you chose them.

I only have a few at home at the moment and only one mandolin: an A4 basic by Rosta Capek. I really think he is the best. Ricky Skaggs just had a couple of instruments off Rosta so I’m in good company. (I often tell customers that paying more that the cost of the Capek A4 basic doesn’t get you a ‘better’ mandolin, just different features, scroll, inlays, gold fittings etc..) I play my Lebeda mandola quite a bit and I’ve had a Bill Bussman (Old Wave) 10 string octave for eight years now.

This came about when I started song writing; I wanted a larger mandolin family member to sing with but had no idea whether to go for mandola, octave, bouzouki or a cittern. It became VERY confusing when researching all this because English makers seem very confused over names: a tenor mandola is different things to different people. (I have put a ‘Mandolin Family Explained’ section on the website to help people with this, but there is some disagreement so its only my view).

To cut a long story short I eventually found that a 10 string octave tuned GDAEB when capo-ed at the 5th fret would give me CGDAE, therefore I would have octave mandolin, mandola and mandolin on the same instrument. I had seen and been very impressed by Bill’s work when visiting Stan Jay so I had Bill make me what he called the Moyola. I have since developed the whole ten-string thing a bit and offer mandolin/mandola, octave mandolin/mandola/mandolin and mandocello/bouzouki, all custom made for TAMCO.

There is much discussion in the mandolin world about the right sort of instrument for particular types of music: oval hole for Celtic and Jazz, round back for classical, f-holes for bluegrass and so on. Many players seem to adhere to these rules, with notable exceptions being Simon Mayor who plays every style on his f-hole Vanden and Niles Hokkanen with his oval hole F4. Where do you stand on this issue?

I mentioned my prejudices above: mine is for the oval hole. I believe that many bluegrass players are influenced by tradition - “that’s what Bill (Monroe) played” - and convention - “being seen in a bluegrass band with anything other than an F5 is like going on stage without your trousers on”. To my ear, the loss of cut you get with oval as opposed to f hole is small compared to the gain in sustain and resonance.

But I had a conversation with Simon Mayor recently and he had me starting to believe otherwise. So I guess my answer is that whatever does it for you is right. I try always to bear this in mind when talking to customers. It’s definitely true that we all have a different ideal mandolin sound running through our heads; mine happens to have a very strong (some would say thuddy) bass. Looks are also important: your instrument has to look great to you as well as sound good.

We all try to tell our selves and friends that the sound is most important but I think it has to look right too. If you always wanted an F5 then get one! If highly figured maple does it if for you then go for it. I have bought instruments in the past because they had spectacular woods!

In your travels, you must have played a huge number of instruments by a wide range of makers. Which makers do you particularly admire?

As I mentioned before, Rosta Capek is my favorite mandolin luthier. I also mentioned that what I think of the luthier is important to me. Rosta doesn’t even like anyone else in his space. He does every last detail. When I suggested that he employ an apprentice to do the mundane work he was aghast!! He’s a great guy and makes great mandolins.

On guitars it has to be Dana Bourgeois. Dana does employ other luthiers but they are all master craftsmen and make their own guitars when not working for Dana. He has a hand in every guitar and does all the final finishing; if Dana isn’t 100% happy with it it doesn’t go into the case.

What advice would you give in terms of buying a mandolin to the absolute beginner on a budget? What about to the more experienced player wanting to move up to a good solid wood mandolin without spending the Earth? And what about if the sky were the limit?

To blow my own trumpet… the best advice is to talk to someone that knows about mandolins… It’s always best to play an instrument if you can: I can advise but I’m not the customer. People often ask over the phone or online about playability and tone. What plays easily to me may not to you. Playability can’t be decided by a check-box of questions about fretboard width or radius, for example.

Sometimes people wanting a wide board leave with a narrow one. Playability is a combination of factors and can only be definitively determined by the player playing a particular instrument. The same goes for tone. I spend many hours trying to describe sound on my website but to be honest it’s really just my best shot; there are only a few words for sound and many sound qualities. I am really trying to excite the reader to come and try the instrument.

Also different folk hear sound differently. It is common when comparing two instruments that one person will think one the bassiest (is that a word? I mean to say has the strongest bass) and someone else thinks the other has more bass.

For the beginner, buyers beware! The cheapest mandolin I sell is £75; there are cheaper around but in my view they are not playable. I was at the Frankfurt show a few years ago and went onto the stand of a maker I won’t name. Not a single instrument was tuned and the owner didn’t have a tuner or know how to tune them. I tuned a few up and played them. Then he asked me what I thought. I asked him if he wanted me to be polite or honest.

He said honest so I told him I didn’t think any of the mandolins and mandolin family instruments I had played qualified as musical instruments! He said that in 40 years no-one had ever told him that. I replied that’s because most of his retailers had no interest in or knowledge of mandolins and just wanted to sell something cheap. It’s not much use buying a £50 mandolin if it’s not playable and going to put you off.

Essential also is that the shop knows what they are doing: have they set it up properly? Can they answer all your other questions about strings, picks, playing and whatever else you need to know? You wouldn’t buy a car from a bookshop so don’t buy a mandolin from a guitar shop: most of them know nothing about mandolins.

When considering mid range instruments, things have changed dramatically in the past few years. When I opened it was VERY hard to offer a customer a really good mandolin in the £500 to £1000 range, especially F-style. Now we have plenty to offer; Eastman and Furch are both amazing. BTW the word seems to have gotten around that Furch aren’t up to scratch: I think there was some discussion on mandolin-cafe when they first came back into production.

I have just put an email from a happy Furch customer on my website and an MA21 we have at the moment is the best sounding (to my ear…) under £1000 mandolin I’ve ever had or heard, bar NONE.

It’s at the top end it’s hardest to advise. There are definitely diminishing returns. Leaving aside Gilchrist, Dubenbostel, Nuggets and Loars costing well over £10 000 (the only Loar I played was a dog), I think it’s fair to say (many will disagree) that once you are looking at hand-made mandolins from around £1100 they are at least twice as good as the low end factory made stuff but I don’t think twice as good as that exists.

To harp on about Capek again, I often tell customers that once you are looking at his A4 basic then in terms of sound and build quality things don’t get much better: you are paying most of your extra money for scrolls, bindings, inlays etc. BUT many makers (Capek is one) use older and higher quality woods for their higher end models: the difference here may not be apparent when new but will come out with playing in.

It’s not a science (thank g*d), I’ve mentioned people hearing things differently but also some (many?) people seem to have more highly developed hearing than me and it’s with these top quality hand made instruments that the differences are often more subtle. For instance Simon (Mayor) is able to hear subtle differences that I can’t.

So I’m afraid it comes back to the individual again. Sorry but there are no rules and just to prove it my favorite mandolin ever is the Rigel G5 that we have: its got a scroll and F holes (and it’s three times the price of the A4 basic) which goes against all my normal preferences. Unfortunately I can’t afford to take it home.

I would also recommend being wary about buying abroad on several levels. First, price, it may look cheaper in the US but by the time VAT, duty, shipping etc, etc are added its no cheaper than buying in the UK. Also don't try bringing in instruments undeclared or under-valued these days. The customs guys can use the internet...(and they confiscate and fine..) Second, service and warranty issues.

In the US there is no policy that for a warranty claim the instrument maker or seller pays the shipping costs. If your instrument was bought in the USA and it needs warranty work you will have to pay to send it both ways. Also if you don't get what you were expecting how do you pursue it? I spoke with someone recently who had ordered a custom mandolin from a well known US firm.

The customization was not as he had ordered and they refused to replace it unless he paid the shipping for the return and the replacement!!!

We take care of all warranty issues at no cost to the customer.

If you had to start over again would you still choose the mandolin?

Yes…

What would be your reaction if a friend sat on your favorite mandolin?

To shoot myself for leaving it where he could sit on it.

And finally, what burning issues do you have that you would like to have been asked about?

I think there is a lot of legend worshiping but am too much of a coward to say in print what I think of the Loar legend. And I can’t afford a top-flight lawyer so I won’t say what I think about current Gibson instruments or their business practices. Finally I’d like to encourage folk to enjoy their mandolins and not get too hung up on strings/picks etc… help the flak’s coming…

Interview by Simon Carson, Feb, 2005